Ana Mari Cauce: Leader of Learning

[00:00:32] Jonathan Sposato: Yes. And again, thank you so much, President Cauce for being here.

[00:00:48] Jonathan Sposato: What is the toughest part of being a university president? 

[00:00:53] Ana Marie Cauce: Oh my gosh. First of all, I want to say thank you for having me on and for that gracious introduction. Um, boy, is that a tough question. It kind of depends on what day it is. Uh, but I think that, you know, that, that, that the toughest part is really that, you know, particularly right now at this moment.

[00:01:13] Ana Marie Cauce: Uh, we’re in a very polarized world and we’re, and that hits home. Um, things are more polarized than we’ve seen them in a very long time. And it is clear that, you know, that we have, um, that, you know, it’s very hard right now. To talk across our differences and to find common ground, even though, of course, we all know that it exists.

[00:01:39] Ana Marie Cauce: And so, that has been something that’s been very difficult and it makes it hard in terms of messaging. Because, you know, you really, I mean, we need to be the university for everybody. We are the university for the entire state of Washington. And so sometimes you really find yourself skating this fine line where you really do have to step in to some very difficult problems, but you want to do so in a way that leaves room For people to come back together and, uh, sometimes, you know, that is very, very difficult because, um, you know, again, uh, right now we live in a very polarized society and talking across differences has become very difficult, um, not just here, but across the country and across the world.

[00:02:32] Jonathan Sposato: We really appreciate that, President Cauce, and we are certainly going to dive a little bit more into some of the difficulties that you’ve referenced a little bit later in the podcast. Um, uh, and we agree that that it is incredibly, it is now an incredibly polarized time, and there’s perhaps an opportunity for us all to, To model the right kind of dialogue and behavior and and and and ways to move forward constructively.

[00:02:58] Jonathan Sposato: So, uh, here at Seattle Magazine, we do have this, um, unwavering belief that Seattle’s a world class city and that what happens here in Seattle impacts the rest of the world and matters to the rest of the world. Whether, you know, we think someday that, you know, That, that all kinds of cancers will be cured right here, uh, uh, because of the research that we’re doing here.

[00:03:20] Jonathan Sposato: Uh, we think that, that, that, that major components of, of, of the technologies that will enable people to go to, to Mars, uh, will be created here, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but what is it about the University of Washington, in your opinion, uh, that is so special, that is so ascended? Is there something unique in the water that we drink that makes the University of Washington really stand out.

[00:03:44] Jonathan Sposato: Uh, uh, you know, it is, uh, you know, last I heard it, it was the number four, uh, highest ranked, uh, public university in the world, not just in the country, but in the world. So, so tell us what you think is, is what makes, uh, the UW so special. 

[00:03:59] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, I think it actually is in part this partnership that we have With such a great city, such a great community, such a great state, um, you know, we are, uh, you know, we’re sitting at the edge of the world and, uh, the edge of the country, uh, and I think that we have attracted people who are, you know, willing to go to the frontiers and who are really kind of interested in making a difference and who were drawn here by the Uh, because this is a place where they could.

[00:04:31] Ana Marie Cauce: I think that there’s a couple of things that I think really stand out about our university. One of them is that we’re unafraid to say that we want to see the work that happens here turn into impact across the world. You know, a lot of universities talk about basic discovery based research. We do that.

[00:04:52] Ana Marie Cauce: Um, the, the work that you’re talking about that’s going to translate into, into cures for cancer, cures for Alzheimer’s, it’s the result of basic research that’s been going on for years. But we are absolutely committed to, as quickly as possible, turning our discoveries into real impact, often first in our own communities.

[00:05:13] Ana Marie Cauce: And then across the world, and we’re not apologetic about the fact that we want our research not to just be about theory, but to really be about impact in our communities. And part of the way of doing that. Is to make sure that we’re wired in a way that’s really interdisciplinary, that lets people in different disciplines talk to each other, because the big, hairy, complicated problems that are left, you know, left to solve are not going to be that of any one discipline.

[00:05:45] Ana Marie Cauce: It really is going to be about working together. I mean, think about something like climate change. Yes, we need, we absolutely need our climate scientists to be looking at and to be, you know, uh, helping us predict what’s going to happen in the future to, you know, Help us look at, you know, what’s happening in the atmosphere, but we need our engineers to be thinking about how can we intervene in this product?

[00:06:12] Ana Marie Cauce: And we actually really need our health scientists to be right there because climate change is making a difference in our health, everything from, we have to put more energy into figuring out how do we deal with the effects of snow, of smoke, and that also brings in people in urban design and architecture.

[00:06:30] Ana Marie Cauce: Sure. You know that these are really problems that require us to work together and often universities are structured in silos where the different colleges don’t speak together very well. And I’m not saying that we’ve solved it all. We’re still working on it, but I think we’re very committed to doing that.

[00:06:48] Ana Marie Cauce: And then the second is that we involve our students in everything that we do. Right now, down the hall, not very far away, actually, you know, across the street, I should say, rather than down the hall, at Mary Gates Hall, we have one of the nation’s biggest, I think it’s the, it’s either number one or number two in terms of size, biggest undergraduate research festivals in the world.

[00:07:11] Ana Marie Cauce: The country where we have more than 6, 000 undergraduates presenting projects that they’ve been doing all year, and the sophistication of those problems would wow you. 

[00:07:23] Rob Smith: Now, now is a good time to mention, um, almost $9 billion in the economic impact of spinoffs the last 30 years. Yep. More than 4 billion of that in the past five years alone.

[00:07:34] Rob Smith: How does this, you’re kind of getting at this, Anna Ari, how does this influence campus culture? Is this frequently discussed? In in the administration building. 

[00:07:46] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, it’s definitely discussed a lot in the administration building. I do think that there are folks that are oblivious to it that are going about doing their work and don’t quite realize the sheer size of our impact.

[00:07:58] Ana Marie Cauce: Because I think that that’s what you’re getting at, is that we not only do great things, but we do them at scale. Um, you know, and so, you know, we’re talking about, you know, this, uh, not in a couple of weeks, we’ll be handing out 17, 000 diplomas. Um, we really do things at scale. But I do think there’s that sense, I can remember, I don’t remember, this was about five or six years ago, my sense of time is all messed up.

[00:08:25] Ana Marie Cauce: When we picked as our model, model boundless. And, you know, as, as academics are, uh, you know, it was like, well, is this, you know, how does this going to go? And, you know, we were back and forth with it. Well, the community has just gone crazy and our students love it because I really do think that’s what it’s about is, you know, look, a book line, even a university as big as ours can’t do everything, but we can do anything.

[00:08:54] Jonathan Sposato: I love that. I love that. Rob, I’m going to jump in really quickly, which, uh, because this is a natural segue to uh, to something I know our, our listeners really want to know. Um, Anamari, if you were to articulate in layman’s terms to someone, uh, living in our region, in our community, what your vision for higher ed looks like and, and, you know, the University of Washington’s part in that, what might you say?

[00:09:22] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, there’s a lot of pieces to it. One piece that is incredibly, incredibly important and that, you know, um, is in the news all the time is the whole issue of access, which has to do with Pricing. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, that, uh, occasionally irritates me, I’ll be honest, is when I read those news stories that kind of say that, you know, college is out of reach and, you know, there was recently one that talked about, you know, I don’t remember if it was the price of Harvard or the price of NYU or something, but that it was, tuition was 92, 000 a year.

[00:09:56] Ana Marie Cauce: And, you know, you read all these things and it scares the heck out of me. You know, young people and they start thinking, Oh, that’s out of reach. I can’t possibly do that. And truth is that, you know, I’m not, you know, there are some places that are out of reach. And, uh, and that’s true. And there are places that I wouldn’t, you know, I don’t recommend that students, you know, as undergraduates saddle themselves with too much debt.

[00:10:25] Ana Marie Cauce: Um, but, you know, in this state, in part because of the really, um, Great financial aid system that we have across all our public universities in this state, although of course I want them to go to the University of Washington, but the truth is that all our public universities in this state are incredibly, incredibly, um, affordable.

[00:10:48] Ana Marie Cauce: Um, we have, you know, we have ourselves, our Husky Promise, and our Husky Promise makes it clear that if you are moderate to low income, we will waive your tuition. But we [00:11:00] also have, um, the university, uh, the, the, the college, The Washington College Grant, which can be used at any university across the state, which really makes us one of the most affordable places in the world.

[00:11:17] Ana Marie Cauce: For example, over, overall, almost 70 percent of UW undergraduates leave with no known debt. Zero data. 

[00:11:29] Jonathan Sposato: Wow. 

[00:11:30] Ana Marie Cauce: Okay. And it’s 69%. So when I say almost 70, I’m not, you know, I really do mean. And those, and those of that 30 percent or so that have debt. It averages just a little over 20, 000 and, you know, and I’m not saying that that’s nothing, but that’s more than offset by increased earnings.

[00:11:54] Ana Marie Cauce: And we really are affordable. I mean, we not only for the low income kids, what [00:12:00] we promise is no tuition, but in fact, we help with housing costs. We have a food pantry for those students that are really having a hard time. We really work hard to make sure that our students. Um, can graduate and we have jobs on campus for those that want to work on campus.

[00:12:17] Ana Marie Cauce: We really work very hard. And like I say, you know, um, it’s an investment that pays off. It pays off in terms of, you know, dollars and cents between, you know, people who go to college make somewhere between 60 to 75 percent more than someone with just a high school diploma. But, you know, just as important.

[00:12:41] Ana Marie Cauce: It’s the way in which it prepares you to have an impact in the world. Um, If you go to college, you’re much more apt to vote. You’re much more apt to be engaged in volunteer work in your community You’re much more more apt to In terms of philanthropy you live longer. You actually live longer and have better health So, you know going to college It pays off in ways that are much more than economic, and it pays off more than, more than to the individual.

[00:13:14] Ana Marie Cauce: It pays off to the entire state, because we have to pay less in terms of healthcare. They are involved, they are civically involved, and we’ve got to get that message out. And so I think that that is the number one thing that we really have to focus on, is making sure That you know, and we are very transparent.

[00:13:34] Ana Marie Cauce: You can go on to our website and look at a calculator and get a sense of what your financial aid package would be because I think that’s important. Um, there are so many young people that you and I know would qualify for every bit of financial aid in the world. You know, in the universe, but they don’t know it and we have to get the word out.

[00:13:54] Ana Marie Cauce: But it’s also, I mean, we’re doing a number of things. We have a range of extracurricular activities, everything from a student volunteer to do research. In our fabulous healthcare centers, they can be far apart of finding cures to cancer and Alzheimer’s, um, to, you know, um, all the leadership opportunities, you know, they can be, uh, in leadership in terms of student government, or in terms of a whole range of, of activities that they can do here.

[00:14:24] Ana Marie Cauce: We really are working hard to develop more and more internships so that while students are at the university, they can be involved in work so that. You know, they know what work culture is like, um, before they graduate. And, you know, we really are much more flexible than some places. I mean, one of the things that I think we need to be thinking more about this generation is, as I like to say, they’re not the album generation.

[00:14:51] Ana Marie Cauce: Um, they are the playlist generation and we need to make it more possible for students to come be here a year, maybe take, you know, go work someplace for a year, go to study abroad for a year, come back. You know, we get very fixated on four years to graduation. And the truth is that we have to make the paths more flexible because our students are leading our leading lives that are sometimes very different from the lives that we led.

[00:15:17] Rob Smith: Lay this generation. I love it. Well, it took me more than four years to graduate from the University of Oregon. I’m just saying, but you would mention you, you threw out that 92, 000 figure. It’s worth noting here that the resident tuition is only about 13, 000. Absolutely. Total costs are only about 22, 000.

[00:15:37] Rob Smith: So even without that aid package, I guess it’s all relative, but compared to a lot of the other top universities, this is incredibly affordable. 

[00:15:45] Ana Marie Cauce: There’s no question. A lot of times when I go to talk, uh, to various civic organizations, I ask them, how much do you think tuition is here? And the majority think it’s between 25, a year for just tuition.

[00:15:59] Rob Smith: Now, is that, is that a byproduct of a lot of the, uh, a lot of the honors and the recognition and the prestige that the University of Washington has? 

[00:16:08] Ana Marie Cauce: Oh, well, I don’t think it’s just that. I think it’s partly because so many privates are so expensive. And, you know, and like I say, if you read the newspapers, They constantly are harping on how unaffordable college is.

[00:16:22] Ana Marie Cauce: And, you know, and I think that that’s an important story to tell, but they often don’t add the if, ands, and buts about how different sits in one place than another. But it’s also the case, um, and, you know, one can, uh, can talk about this, uh, in different sorts of ways. But the truth is that what we see in private universities is an enormous amount of discounting.

[00:16:46] Ana Marie Cauce: So, you know, they say that the, you know, the tuition is, you know, 60, 000 a year, but most kids are paying 30, 000. And those kids are saying, Hey, I’m getting a great deal because I’m getting, you know, a big scholarship. Uh, but the truth is that then the message is giving to everybody else is it’s unaffordable.

[00:17:03] Ana Marie Cauce: So it’s, it’s a complicated, uh, you know, there, there was a, uh, one of the presidents, I think he was at USC at the time, Steve Sample is the name, was the one who talked about that as basically a marketing trick. 

[00:17:15] Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, but I 

[00:17:16] Ana Marie Cauce: think that in the long, but I think in the long run, it may be a good marketing trick for one university, but overall, it’s sending the wrong message to people about affordability.

[00:17:25] Rob Smith: Yeah, and affordability is one thing. Getting into the University of Washington is another thing. I have an eighth grader, and we were looking up just organically, and we saw that the average GPA at the University of Washington is 3. 83. And most, most people have a 3. 5 or higher. That’s got to be, how many students get turned down every year?

[00:17:52] Rob Smith: What percentage of applicants are not admitted every year? 

[00:17:55] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, actually, you know, we’ll see what the numbers are this year. We have the highest number of applicants [00:18:00] ever, and it keeps on going up and up. But, you know, uh, in general, what you end up seeing is You know, uh, about 50 percent, about half of our in state students, in fact, do get in.

[00:18:14] Ana Marie Cauce: I mean, we have, you know, there’s probably some self selection as to who applies, but about half come in. We are not a highly selective university. If you’re out of state, your chances go more like to 20 some percent. So it’s harder to, it’s much harder to get in from out of state, almost twice as hard. But the truth is, we have great students across the state.

[00:18:36] Ana Marie Cauce: We’re a state that’s growing by the minute. And the university has been trying to grow, but you know, um, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s limits to our ability to do that. And the truth is that every other university is under enrolled. So, we have a bit of a, of a, of a difficult situation there, but we really are trying to get the word out that, you know, yes, I mean, you know, GPA matters.

[00:18:58] Ana Marie Cauce: There’s no question about that, but some of the things that we really look at is what courses are you taking? Are you taking hard courses? We don’t want students to say, I’m not going to take that AP course, or I’m not going to take that honors course because I don’t want my GPA to come down. We look at that.

[00:19:14] Ana Marie Cauce: But we also look at. What kinds of activities are they involved in in their community? And I don’t mean by that that they have to be a sports athlete and, you know, volunteer and this and that. But that there’s something that they’re really passionate about and where they’ve been involved. Um, you know, so, you know, we really try and look at the whole student.

[00:19:34] Ana Marie Cauce: Um, and as you know, SATs are optional. And, you know, so it’s not just GPA. It really isn’t. And I would really encourage. You know, any student who really wants to come here and has done really good work to, you know, to, to please apply. The other thing that I want to say, because sometimes, you know, those of us who have been here for a long time, and I’ve been here almost 40 years, is Bothell [00:20:00] and Tacoma are amazing campuses.

[00:20:03] Ana Marie Cauce: They really, really are. I mean, some of us remember them when they were, you know, kind of little startups. Um, they’re not. They each have more than 5, 000 students. In fact, Bothell has over 6, 000 students. Um, they now have, um, they, they now have residence halls where you can stay. They have, you know, sports facilities on campus so that you can have a full college experience.

[00:20:28] Ana Marie Cauce: And the classes are smaller. So for a student that might be overwhelmed by the size of the Seattle campus, you They can have a smaller, a little bit more personalized experience that sometimes might be better for some first generation students. Those are campuses where the average age of students is a little higher.

[00:20:47] Ana Marie Cauce: So, you know, it’s, it’s, it, you know, it can be a place where a variety of students, students that are coming back to school after being, but they can do anything. Um, uh, the student body president from [00:21:00] Tacoma, uh, from, uh, two years ago, um, is, you know, graduated from UWT, a student body president, and he went on to get a full ride scholarship to the School of Public, uh, Public Affairs at Princeton.

[00:21:18] Ana Marie Cauce: Now he’s on a full ride scholarship at yale law school. 

[00:21:22] Jonathan Sposato: Wow. 

[00:21:23] Ana Marie Cauce: There’s a young man at university of Tacoma who start who went back to school, um, in his mid twenties with two children. 

[00:21:32] Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s great. There’s certainly a, um, uh, A really interesting set of trade offs, you know, back to the question that Rob had posed about selectivity, um, um, uh, applications, uh, versus, um, admit rate.

[00:21:47] Jonathan Sposato: Uh, there, there’s, um, as someone who’s worked in higher ed as a trustee at another institution that, that, that, that there’s a really interesting set of trade offs. that institutions can make as it relates to how selectively they want to go. Um, and so, uh, bottom line is, uh, I would take the position that it’s actually a really good thing.

[00:22:05] Jonathan Sposato: Uh, I, I, I sort of feel as if, um, there are greater benefits to the fact that the average GPA is Uh, 3. 83 is, uh, of the incoming freshmen. That’s really fantastic. Uh, and given the nuance that, that, uh, President Cauce, uh, espoused around, um, taking a look at the entire student, uh, and, um, and that there are also many, many options in the area.

[00:22:30] Jonathan Sposato: I think, I think overall for the greater good, it’s a fantastic thing. 

[00:22:34] Ana Marie Cauce: Absolutely. And I want to be clear that Bothell and Tacoma have an absolutely great return on investment as well, and they are considered on a number of national levels as real jewels for the Pacific, uh, for the West Coast as a whole.

[00:22:48] Rob Smith: Do you think there’s a perception that they are lesser campuses than the main campus in Seattle? 

[00:22:54] Ana Marie Cauce: You know, I, I find that that’s less and less the case with younger, the younger [00:23:00] generation who, who have seen them take a walk on either one of those two campuses. They’re very impressive, but I think amongst people more my age and some of those, uh, you know, and Sometimes maybe about the parents of those kids.

[00:23:13] Ana Marie Cauce: You know, these schools are a little bit over 25 years old. I think they’re about 28 or something now. And, you know, so they’re young adults. And I think that too often, uh, people still see them as the little toddlers. And they’re not that anymore. And we’re working hard to change that perception because these are, these are fully, you get an absolute full University of Washington degree and you get University of Washington quality.

[00:23:39] Ana Marie Cauce: I can assure you of that. 

[00:23:40] Rob Smith: Will SAT scores continue to fall out of favor going forward? 

[00:23:46] Ana Marie Cauce: You know, different, you know, some places are bringing them back. You know, I, my own feeling is that, you know, that, that the tests themselves weren’t that awful, uh, when they were first put out. That, [00:24:00] that, that, you know, they can be a way of someone really showing their talent, um, particularly, for example, I mean, I’ll be honest, there’s no way That I would have, um, you know, gone to Yale if it weren’t for those because I didn’t go to a prestigious undergraduate school and particularly in high school because I was working full time.

[00:24:19] Ana Marie Cauce: Um, I mean, all my teachers were surprised when they saw, uh, my SATs because quite frankly, you know, my grades were good, but they weren’t, you know, the very, very top because I was working. And so, but I think that part of what happened is the test taking in industry and parents desires to. You know, wealthy parents desires to get the best for their kids really ruined whatever was good about them because the problem, I mean, the problem is that, you know, basically, and it kind of means we’re doing a whole lot of S.

[00:24:50] Ana Marie Cauce: A. T. preparation and they became more and more a signal of wealth. Um, you know, we still, when I say optional, uh, we still allow them and every once in a while. We really find, um, uh, you know, a first generation kid that, um, that, you know, that for some reason or other, uh, might’ve been an illness in the family, et cetera.

[00:25:10] Ana Marie Cauce: Their overall GPA doesn’t look that good. They had an off year, uh, and, um, then they go off and do fabulous things. I, I recently got, uh, A text from a young man that I had worked with here probably about seven or eight years ago that was exactly that kind of young person. He’d really had some difficulties with his family.

[00:25:35] Ana Marie Cauce: He came from a very, uh, um, you know, a very, very traditional religious, um, family. And when he came out, it was a, you know, it was a disaster for him and, uh, he really got, you know, and that happened when he, you know, He got some, you know, poor grades, et cetera, and his, you know, uh, SAT scores, you know, played, you know, a role in him getting in.

[00:26:00] Ana Marie Cauce: He had some struggles here. Um, and, but really did great. And now he’s at Stanford Law School. Um, you know, the, the, the, there really are folks who for, that are incredibly smart and it doesn’t always show in the grades. And we want to make sure, you know, just like we want to make sure that SATs, you know, are not what get people in.

[00:26:21] Ana Marie Cauce: We, you know, again, grades are important, but we want to make room for students to show that their talents and other ways and some, and for some people, the SATs can be that too. 

[00:26:31] Rob Smith: How closely do you weigh community service? 

[00:26:35] Ana Marie Cauce: You know, there’s no one formula, and part of it depends on what kind of community service to.

[00:26:41] Ana Marie Cauce: You know, I mean, one of the things that worries me a little bit, and I’ve said this before, about, um, you know, I mean, you know, on the one hand, you want your admissions to be transparent. On the other hand, the more transparent you make them, the more people can game them. And, uh, you know, and one of the things that, you know, that we’ve been talking a lot about here is we’re really looking at depth more than just breadth.

[00:27:06] Ana Marie Cauce: So, for example, you know, we do have some students that are amazing and they were, you know, the captain of, you know, their, uh, sports team and they were, um, the valedictorian and they did do volunteer work and they did do that. But, you know, um, I’m perfectly happy with, uh, someone that’s, you know, if someone’s been a lab rat, and they don’t have the kind of personality to be going out and doing a lot of things for whatever reason, and they’re going to discover the cure to cancer, I’m fine with taking them at the University of Washington.

[00:27:39] Ana Marie Cauce: And I sometimes laugh about, um, You know, those kids who will, you know, run over a homeless person to get to their service learning project. You know, what we want is real engagement. There’s not, you know, I don’t want to give anyone a chance, you know, anyone the sense of go do this project because it’s going to get you or go do this community service because it is going to get you into the University of Washington.

[00:28:01] Ana Marie Cauce: I want them to do it because it’s their passion, because they care, and that will show up as they, I hope, as they write their essays. 

[00:28:11] Jonathan Sposato: No, I really love this conversation. The, the, there’s a saying in business that the line between value and commodity keeps moving up and up and up, and it drives more things, uh, to, to being free and being commoditized.

[00:28:23] Jonathan Sposato: And in some ways, as I’m following some of these really interesting and sometimes very, very eloquent Instagram, uh, accounts where their, their, their expertise is to counsel, uh, people, uh, uh, how to. in some ways game the system, the application system. Uh, it, it, it, I do scratch my head a little bit and think about, That in final analysis, it seems like just be you, just be your authentic self, whatever that you want to geek out on, do that.

[00:28:56] Jonathan Sposato: Of course, you want to be a well rounded people and well rounded person and take [00:29:00] care of the fundamentals. Uh, uh, uh, but, but, but, um, uh, it, yes, it’s, I’m acknowledging it is very difficult to, uh, have a standard formula that you make transparent to the world because the, um, Uh, that that can sort of backfire in terms of what the result that you get, uh, 

[00:29:19] Ana Marie Cauce: yeah, I don’t know whether this is true or not.

[00:29:22] Ana Marie Cauce: I haven’t fully vetted it, but like, there are rumors out there that there is a, uh, a company. That basically, you know, takes, uh, uh, high school students to third world country, uh, to build homes as a service learning project. And then once the homes are built, they tear them down. So the next group could come and build homes.

[00:29:44] Jonathan Sposato: I don’t 

[00:29:44] Ana Marie Cauce: know if that’s entirely true, but I think that, you know, that, that, that, that there is a little bit of a sense that, you know, volunteer work can end up being. A little bit like that. And like I say, we want we want students that are doing things because they really care about it. And, you know, it’s not that they’ve, you know, they’re not going to get more points for being for having done three, you know, three volunteer projects, as opposed to doing one with a real sustained effort.

[00:30:10] Ana Marie Cauce: So, you know, we, you know, we’re looking for this is something that I did. This is something that I learned about. This is why and not this counting up of activities. 

[00:30:21] Rob Smith: Turning turning to current events. You had a big win today. The encampment at the University of Washington is coming down on Monday. We understand.

[00:30:31] Rob Smith: And my understanding is under the agreement, the organizers. Or you have agreed to fund at least 20 scholarships for Palestinian students displaced from Gaza, a faculty committee that would recommend changes to study abroad programs and increased transparency around the school’s investments. That’s, that’s a big deal.

[00:30:53] Rob Smith: And you have. Always been pretty reluctant, you’ve been public about this, to sweep those encampments as [00:31:00] some other university presidents have done. And it looks like that was a fantastic strategy. Can you bring us into what the last couple of weeks was like with this? 

[00:31:10] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, you know, first of all, I want to be, I want to be direct with you.

[00:31:13] Ana Marie Cauce: I’ve been getting all the emails. Some people are upset about the win. Some people are upset that we gave too much. Some are upset that we gave too little. The students themselves, if you read their, uh, their description, they say that it was a disappointing, um, result and that it wasn’t a real win and they have to keep to it.

[00:31:31] Ana Marie Cauce: And so, you know, there’s going to be a range of, of opinions. And there’s going to be those people who question, and I understand why, why would you come to Um, an agreement, I like to think about it as a, you know, that we found common ground, but why would you do that, uh, you know, with a group that’s doing something on your campus that is, um, not legal, and that is against code in any case, and, you know, and like I say, it’s, it’s a complicated, you know, one of the things about being in this role is that, you know, You know, you’re always weighing different kinds of decisions.

[00:32:09] Ana Marie Cauce: You know, I do think that in the very early days, um, that there was, uh, a sense of positivity, um, around, you know, the encampment. These are, um, you know, the core group of students care very, very deeply about an issue that all of us care about. And you know, I don’t think there’s a lot of question that there’s a real humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

[00:32:32] Ana Marie Cauce: And also, you know, I also think we need to remember that the hostages haven’t been released But you know, it’s been very difficult watching tv and watching children’s supper uh, but I do also think that you know, it’s one of those things where Um, especially when you get wrapped up in your own passion, you don’t often see Um, and I think that in some cases there wasn’t difference I want to be clear to how some of the slogans and chants etc were affecting others You And, um, and like I say, I think that, you know, that in some cases, uh, you know, it wasn’t done purposely, but I think at the edges, there’s no question that it was.

[00:33:10] Ana Marie Cauce: And there were others of our students, especially our Jewish students who felt very intimidated. Um, and so, you know, you’re trying to, to deal with, um, that range of issues. I think what became, what was becoming clearer and clearer though, is that, you know, things were not. Um, we’re not good in the encampment.

[00:33:31] Ana Marie Cauce: It wasn’t just our students. Uh, we were beginning to get more people from outside. We were beginning to, and it really was, you know, uh, devolving, I’d say from, um, from, from, from the, the, you know, in, in ways that were, you know, quite frankly, unfortunate for any, for everybody. And it was beginning to bring in counter protesters.

[00:33:54] Ana Marie Cauce: And we are all, uh, very aware of what happened at UCLA and we’re all very aware that it is very difficult, um, to, you know, I mean, we were very lucky in some ways in that we were, we knew ahead of time. When the two counter protests were coming and we did call in Spd and state police to come and I know that some say oh you called them in to protect the encampment We called them in to protect the entire university because if something were to blow up there It would have affected the entire university But we were more and more.

[00:34:32] Ana Marie Cauce: Um Concerned quite frankly, i’ll be honest. I was scared you folks know. My brother was murdered at a demonstration Demonstration In 88 seconds, five people were murdered. That part of my lived experience, and there was no way, and there was no way that I wasn’t going to do everything I possibly could to not see something like that on our campus.

[00:34:57] Ana Marie Cauce: And as every day went by, the more and more fear was that something like that would happen. Um, and so, we did think that the best step forward was to be looking for common ground. You know, some of the things that these students were asking for, for example, the scholarships, basically what we’re doing is waiving tuition.

[00:35:20] Ana Marie Cauce: For the students from Gaza. We have a program. We already have a program that does that for students and universities that are displaced even by either by natural disasters. Um, you know, we made that offer to students after after Katrina. In, in universities in New Orleans. I don’t, I think we had maybe one or two that chose to come because we’re so far away.

[00:35:44] Ana Marie Cauce: Other universities had more, but you know, that’s something that we should do. And we hope that when those students come, we can go out to the community and find them homestays. Because, you know, for them tuition isn’t going to be enough and we should do that kind of thing. And they were correct. I’m not opposed to looking at the role that industry pay plays, you know, on our campus.

[00:36:07] Ana Marie Cauce: And is it affecting, you Uh, our curriculum more or less. I don’t want to focus that on just one company. I want to focus that on industry as a whole Um again, you know if our study abroad programs If something about study abroad in a particular country leads to discriminatory activities We should look at that.

[00:36:27] Ana Marie Cauce: So, you know, I think a lot, you know, a number, you know, the things that they were, you know, bringing us were things that it made sense for us to look at. And while I did not want to, and I feel strongly that we weren’t going to give them, um, Give them anything that we wouldn’t have given them if they weren’t in an encampment I also didn’t want to not engage with them because they were and it was you know, it’s a hard balance I understand the criticisms coming from both sides There are people who feel that we didn’t give them enough There are people who feel we gave them too much and I understand both sides, but I think this was the best decision resolution for our entire campus.

[00:37:11] Ana Marie Cauce: We will continue to work with those students. I’ve been meeting with students from Hillel, and I will continue to meet with them and work with them. We have an Islamophobia and an anti Semitism task force. And, uh, you know, and I am looking forward to that point. When we can work together. One of the messages I’ve been really trying to give the students isn’t that there’s something wrong with protest.

[00:37:37] Ana Marie Cauce: I think the fist brings attention to real issues. But if you want to get solutions, we’ve got to find a way of moving to the handshake. 

[00:37:47] Rob Smith: And you were always very reluctant publicly about sweeping the encampment. I mean, you, you, you, you said, so you did not want to do that. Did you, what was it like inside the administration building?

[00:38:00] Rob Smith: Did you ever face pressure to do that? Were you a little bit concerned that it might get to that point? 

[00:38:05] Ana Marie Cauce: I will be absolutely Frank. We were exploring what was necessary to sweep. I never took that option off the table and we were exploring. Uh, because of some of the after effects of defund the police We’re not in a great situation to do the things we we weren’t going to do it if we couldn’t do it um with the kind of uh, With the kind of you know labor that would allow us to do it with Um as little uh, you know as safely as possible and we were looking into it I’m not going to say that we weren’t but that was You Absolutely.

[00:38:46] Ana Marie Cauce: That was something that for me, um, I was going to do everything I could to not go there just because of the danger that is there. Um, you know, we, we need to, you know, understand that. College campuses are very unique places and, you know, when you bring in, um, officers from outside of our campus, our campus, um, you know, you, you know, people will argue back and forth, but I think that our UWPD, um, you know, does know is, is, you know, We do a lot of work with them so that they’ve learned how to work with students.

[00:39:18] Ana Marie Cauce: In fact, they’ve been monitoring, um, you know, with, with full understanding from the encampment. They’ve known that UWPD is there. They, you know, we gave them pictures of our officers so they knew who they were. Um, you know, they, they, they knew to stay, you know, to stay at the edges and not get involved unless there was, you know, Um, you know, you know any incidents of harassment or violence, but um, but you know when you bring it I’m, not trying to say anything bad about any other my god when the spd and the state patrol came they did a fabulous job But once you bring people in, especially here, um, where we do have, you know, um, Antifa and we do have a number of other groups that sometimes [00:40:00] come in with, you know, um, different agendas.

[00:40:05] Ana Marie Cauce: Once that happens, it can very quickly spin out of control. And so I was, there’s no question that that was not going to be my first path. And again, I want to say, I want to be very clear to everybody, I take 100 percent full responsibility for this decision, and I can understand, um, the criticisms that are out there, um, they’re not unreasonable, um, I did what I thought was best for this campus, and I feel comfortable with that decision.

[00:40:41] Rob Smith: Well the fact that you pleased not everybody and maybe nobody is probably indicative of a really good decision and I personally applaud it. I thought it was very well handled from the very beginning. 

[00:40:53] Ana Marie Cauce: Thank you very much. I do appreciate that and I am hearing that from some people as well and I really [00:41:00] appreciate.

[00:41:00] Ana Marie Cauce: I cannot think of, you know, of a tougher situation. That I have ever dealt with in my entire life, just about certainly in my, in my, you know, in my real adult life since I’ve been in this job, and I have tried to do what I thought was right for our university. 

[00:41:19] Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, we really 

[00:41:20] Ana Marie Cauce: appreciate 

[00:41:20] Jonathan Sposato: that. Yeah, we really appreciate that, uh, President Cauce and, and, and I think, uh, uh, perhaps a, hopefully, um, uh, the rest of the community will, will join us in taking what I might argue is a little bit more of a sophisticated or mature view, which is that, um, the very definition of great leadership is, in fact, um, Making really tough decisions and, uh, and that, and that oftentimes the toughest decisions that, that, that go to the very Zenith of any organization.

[00:41:52] Jonathan Sposato: Um, just, and they’re fundamental to their nature and what makes them tough is that you’re not going to make everyone happy. And, um, and so, so there’s a, there’s a, there’s a phrase that I, that I often like to use in business, which is, um, disagree. But commit and, um, and perhaps we can all, um, uh, disagree but commit to the decisions that you’ve made, whether it’s administration, alumni, students, faculty, et cetera.

[00:42:18] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, thank you very much. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate that. But the hard work is still ahead. I mean, you know, the situation in Gaza continues to deteriorate and, um, you know, and enough I say, you know, our, our heart goes out to the civilians there, the hostages are still being held. And, you know, my heart goes out to the families and, you know, we do not have a good situation and we need to continue to work on it through our political methods, you know, through our, you know, reaching out.

[00:42:47] Ana Marie Cauce: So we still have, and within this community, uh, we have a lot of grief across our community. And how can we turn that into something that we share? rather than something that divides us. 

[00:43:00] Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And I, and I still harbor a belief, perhaps I’m, I’m, uh, more naive than I’m certainly not the smartest guy in this room.

[00:43:08] Jonathan Sposato: And, and, and, uh, but I harbored this naive notion that, that situations like this, um, which does seem like in, in my lifetime is one of the toughest operating surfaces, uh, for any Uh, leader, um, in any organization, uh, you could be in a, uh, running a privately held company and be having these debates by the water cooler and making sure that your employees feel safe and no one feels marginalized.

[00:43:36] Jonathan Sposato: But my point is, um, uh, uh, that I guess, uh, You know, there’s there’s always this kind of sense that I’m 57 years old and as I reached middle age and and I can see 60 from where I am right now that that that you 

[00:43:55] Ana Marie Cauce: can go back to look 6060. So, 

[00:43:57] Jonathan Sposato: all right. I see. I see. Uh, there’s a sense that the world has. to a really challenging place.

[00:44:07] Jonathan Sposato: You know, I don’t remember, certainly I was less, uh, uh, uh, paying less attention to the world when I was in my twenties and, and perhaps my thirties, but it does seem like, um, Things are especially challenging. It’s been one tumultuous thing after another. Uh, we don’t need to enumerate every single event.

[00:44:26] Jonathan Sposato: We all know what they are, but, but, but I, my question net net is, Um, uh, assuming you have a belief that these things are cyclical, assuming that we’re not gonna in five more years devolve into the zombie apocalypse, what, what, what, what do you think are the critical success factors for us as a society, as a community right now that we need to continue to uphold so that We lift ourselves back up, if you will.

[00:44:56] Jonathan Sposato: Uh, I’m not even sure. As I asked a question, I realized I don’t have [00:45:00] specific KP eyes that I’m asking us to contemplate right now. But but in terms of overall community morale, in terms of, uh, how we communicate with each other and civility, clarity of how we communicate, except to which we help each other versus, um, uh, be tribal and in our different factions and, and, and how polarized we are.

[00:45:22] Jonathan Sposato: What, what, what do you think are the critical success factors, uh, that we need to pay attention to? 

[00:45:27] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, I think that one thing just to pull away a little bit and, and, and, and be naive with you. Um, I, I do think that it’s, it’s these moments of turmoil and churn that create the opportunity for change. And so, you know, I see this as how do we seize that opportunity?

[00:45:44] Ana Marie Cauce: I think one of the things that that’s very difficult about this time is that, you know, and, and I do, You know, want to talk to all the parents out there and all the uncles out there and all the grandparents out there And you know, I I think that you know, and I do think that some of the cutthroatness Of college applications.

[00:46:03] Ana Marie Cauce: I worry that that feeds into it Is that everything is you have to be the best you have to win win win win win and um, and the thing is that you know, it’s like Um, you know, there’s a sense of your, the person that you’re competing with, you need to vanquish them. It’s not just enough to win. You need to, and that compromise, you know, that like, again, you have to get a win out of everything.

[00:46:28] Ana Marie Cauce: And the truth is that, you know, winning, you have to create win wins. It’s not about, you know, someone that disagrees with you isn’t an enemy to be vanquished. It’s about a potential ally that you can find common ground with. Even if you don’t agree on everything, you can find things that you can agree on.

[00:46:49] Ana Marie Cauce: And we need to focus on those things. So that we can, again, move and make compromise. Compromise is not a bad word. It does not mean that you lost. As we were talking about, you know, if everyone criticizes you, that might be a win. And that, um, I really think that, uh, it, you know, that it is, you know, incredibly important that we realize that, you know, we have to, that compromise is part of moving forward.

[00:47:27] Ana Marie Cauce: Yeah, I do have another, yeah. You know, I think that, you know, part of what we need to focus on is the humanity that we all share. That at this particular moment, we’re all afraid, we’re all hurting, we’re all trying to find a way forward.

[00:47:48] Ana Marie Cauce: And that, you know, like the boys in the boat, um, that started this year, it seems like it was a decade ago. You know, this was a motley crew of young men and they found a way to [00:48:00] pull together. And, you know, we need to again work across our differences and find our swing 

[00:48:07] Rob Smith: here, here. Uh, real quick. I just want to talk about sports in the athletic department real quick.

[00:48:14] Rob Smith: 1st 80. Jen Cohen leaves Troy Dan and leaves a few months later for Nebraska. Caitlin DeBoer leaves for Alabama. Mike Hopkins is fired as coach. What’s going on? 

[00:48:26] Ana Marie Cauce: Well, we mentioned that we’re living in a world full of change, uh, and uh, you know, um, there, there, there, there is no question about that, you know, and like I say, change often comes, uh, in, you know, threes, fours, and fives, but the really good news is Pat Chun is amazing.

[00:48:45] Ana Marie Cauce: He is so good with those young men and women. And, you know, he’s got, you know, two daughters. So he very much as a, as a girl dad and is good with the entire group. And he cares about, he’s just absolutely fabulous. I’m just so, uh, I just love it. You know, um, Jed fish, our new football coach, you know, it’s so amazing.

[00:49:06] Ana Marie Cauce: He put together a couple of events that he called balls and books. And in one, he had the football players, you know, uh, invite their favorite teachers to go have dinner together. Yeah. And in the other one, he invited, you know, us administrators, you know, deans, et cetera, to come over and sit in on team meetings.

[00:49:24] Ana Marie Cauce: And it was so eyeopening. Team meetings are like, you’re sitting in the classroom and you’re watching films and you’re analyzing them and you’re, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re putting together strategy, you know, I mean, you know, talk about, you know, creative thinking. Um, I mean, it was just, you know, it was just wonderful the way that he has, you know, So much reached out, um, to try and, you know, pull together, um, athletics with the rest of campus.

[00:49:51] Ana Marie Cauce: Um, he is one incredible guy. He really, really is. And for this new campaign that we’ve started, he gave a million dollars of his own money. We’ve never seen a coach do that before. Sprinkle. I mean, he is just a kick. And so, you know, the end of the day, I mean, this, this is, you know, I’d love to think that this is how everything’s going to turn out, that we’re going to go through a lot of tumult, but end up with a fish in a sprinkle.

[00:50:19] Jonathan Sposato: That’s great. Yeah, it was. And by the way, was the coaches gift a restricted gift or an unrestricted gift? I’m kidding. I’m kidding. It 

[00:50:27] Ana Marie Cauce: is to athletics. 

[00:50:29] Jonathan Sposato: That’s right. That’s right. Well, with that, I think we’re going to close out. We we we know that you have so generously granted the last hour to us.

[00:50:37] Jonathan Sposato: President cause a we are deeply appreciative of your leadership. And if listeners or readers out there, uh, were, uh, uh, skeptical or unaware of, uh, the University of Washington stature in the community and, and on the global stage, uh, after listening, there is no doubt, uh, uh, some of the reasons why it has ascended to being such an important institution in our, in our, in our country and in the world.

[00:51:03] Jonathan Sposato: So, uh, Thank you so much, uh, on behalf of Seattle Magazine, Seattle Business Magazine, other media properties. Uh, we thank you for your time, President Cauce. 

[00:51:12] Ana Marie Cauce: Thank you so much and Go Dawgs! Bye. Bye. 

[00:51:16] Jonathan Sposato: Cheers. Go dogs. Bye. Thank you.